Hugo’s Chief Product Officer was recently featured in the Elevate podcast and he talked to Xavier about how Hugo came about, how Hugo is helping people to take care of their financial wellbeing, the reason for gold investment, and his take on being a serial entrepreneur.
We’ve transcribed the podcast for your convenience.
Xavier: Hello and welcome to the Elevate podcast! This is going to be the first-ever episode for the series, and I am your host Xavier, where I speak to entrepreneurs, thought leaders, or basically, anyone who I find interesting and anyone who I think is going to leave a lasting impact, be it in their communities, their workspaces, or the world. And so today, I have with me someone who I think is a real inspiration for any current or future entrepreneur. He started multiple companies from engineering to recruitment, and now he and his team have developed a financial wellbeing application, where you can save in both cash and gold. In fact, I’ve been using the app and the card that comes for free over the last two weeks, and it’s been a great experience. And so with that, I am incredibly pleased to have with me Braham from Hugo. Braham, welcome!
Braham: Thank you, Xavier. Very kind of you. Very pleased to hear that you’re using the application!
Xavier: Yeah, it’s great! But maybe for those people who are unfamiliar with Hugo, why don’t you tell us a little bit about how Hugo works, how the idea was founded, how you’re doing in recent times? I know you’ve recently raised $2 million funds in June, so tell us a little bit more about that.
Braham: Yeah, yeah. Great. No problem. So yeah, for context, as you mentioned, it’s a digital account and we have a debit card currently based in Singapore and we’re in a space of something that we like to call Wealthcare, which is all about financial wellbeing for the individual. But what does that actually mean? So we take people on what we like to call an integrated financial journey, where we help users to spend, save and invest more effectively. And this is the key thing — this Spend, Save and Invest, they are product pillars, and these are what really we see as the holy trinity of the financial journey. So we take this user on a journey instead of just focusing on one pillar, which a lot of companies do. There are payment companies out there that focus on payments, there are investment companies out there that just focus on investments and give tools. But we want to take the user on a journey. Education comes with that. Financial inclusion often misses the educational piece, and this is what’s really so important here. So if we can inspire the middle-class, that is constantly getting squeezed, to spend smarter, save and invest earlier, if that just means averaging in 10 years sooner than they would do on their journey into investment products, that compound return can amount to as much as 40% of their final portfolio towards the end of their life. So we want to bring that to the fray and activate that 60% that should really be getting started on this journey about 10 years sooner than they do.
Xavier: Yeah. And I think there’s something that I really want to know is how you guys really came up with this idea.
Braham: Yeah. So I worked in recruitment as you know, for a while and what spun out of that was a consultancy company as well. Um, and what we used to do, because I spent about a decade previous to that building tech and data teams for tech companies around the world. So we had offices in London, New York, South Africa, LA as well. Um, and we worked with a lot of fintechs. So we got to know how to build teams and scale teams internationally. But what came with that was something that we call the five pillars, which was the employee value journey. And we really got into understanding how things like OKRs and methodologies can really get the best out of teams.
So one of our clients, a company called GlintPay in London, actually brought us on board as consultants. And during that process, I got very vested in the business and got to know one of the founders. And then that played out when we used to talk constantly about what they were doing because they had a goldback product, which was more about spending gold as a currency as opposed to saving and investment base. And I found it really interesting because I came from a middle-class background, right? And actually, my father lost his shop when I was young as a child. So our conversations were always about debt reconciliation and things like that and how to leverage credit cards. And we never had that dinner table chat of how to save, how to invest. And of course, that’s not something that’s part of the curriculum, or just certainly wasn’t in the UK, when I was growing up. So we just never had that sort of exposure to and understanding of what it was all about. So I would often talk with Ben who’s one of the co-founders that I was referring to about this. And he already had plenty of ideas on this journey because he came from a wealth of background with gold. And we used to ideate constantly about taking people on this effective savings journey, where it’s not just about investing or spending; it’s about savings without sacrifice, and then automatically investing those savings. So you use your card for example, and we understand what you’re spending and we can look at ways to use substitution, reduction or switching to save you money on what you’re doing already, and then take those effective savings — because you haven’t sacrificed anything, you’re getting the same service, the same product as you wanted before, but you’ve saved some money; so it’s then what do you do with that — so we take that and we look to funnel that into investments, do that on a regular basis, and that’s how you average in.
So how did we actually come to form Hugo? So we’ve been having these conversations and he finished his term at the business that he was in. And we also met David on this journey as well. David’s the CEO of the company; he’s based in Singapore and he has four generations of family in Singapore. So good family heritage, lots of contacts and a company called GPM (Global Precious Metals). So a great awareness of gold. And he wanted a way to take that to the consumer market. And we got together and decided there was an opportunity here to do a slightly different value proposition in the East because the West, as in the UK, Europe and the US, very saturated, very advanced, open-banking already there, incredibly well-developed. But the East has a massive opportunity. You’re talking about Singapore, four and a half million total addressable market of people that have a bank account in Singapore. Tiny, but incredibly strong regulatory structure.
So he said, “Look, if we were to set up a consumer application there to help activate the middle-class, get them into saving, get them into investing, starting with gold — that’s not the end game, it’s just the beginning — then we can take this into the likes of Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, bring it to the masses and then activate an even bigger proportion of the world that are underserved.”
And things like open banking, which is basically the obligatory exchange of data between financial institutions hasn’t even hit this part of the world yet. So when it does, huge opportunity to optimize the holistic view of somebody’s financial universe. So we started the company, I think it was December 2019, looked at beginning the development, COVID hits in February 2020, and think, “Damn, what are we going to do?” So I knew teams, obviously from my background, that were based in the UK. David was out in Singapore anyway, Ben was also in the UK. So I’m CPO. So product. Ben is operations and David is the CEO. So he can take care of the commercial side of things. But I said, look, there’s a group of people that I’ve known for a long time that I think could develop this for a cost half of what we had originally envisaged and twice as quickly. And we had an idea of what we needed to create as our, you know, our MVP. I don’t like using the word MVP, but our 1.0 product, because the benchmark’s so high with fintech, you’ve got to develop so many, so many factors to even make it viable. But we started a completely remote development team. So we’ve got a development team in the UK, a data team in the UK, an operational setup in Singapore. And it forced us since the inception of the business to build for this modern way of working. So using all the collaboration tools, the Slacks, the project management, Asana etc. etc., and creating an incredibly efficient way of working. And we launched the product, it was May this year in a sort of soft launch, and then more seriously started to ramp up as we test it and go out through June and July. The adoption’s been really great.
And as you said, we funded the first piece of the product ourselves with founder funds. We raised 2 million USD in June, and we’re about to close another 2 million. We are actually starting to soft-close that now, and then hopefully beginning of next year, Q1 next year, we’ll be looking at series A territory and that’s when we’ll expand into more investment products and more territories.
Xavier: Yeah. And with your current success in raising funds, and it’s good to hear that you’re raising more funds soon, what are your plans for scaling Hugo? Is it developing more features?
Braham: Yeah, absolutely. So if we rein it back to where we started, we’ve got these three core pillars: Spend, Save, Invest. And it’s all about creating this congruent journey through this cycle. They all come in various orders, but they’re all very important and they must work harmoniously together. So at the moment, on the spend side of things, you’ve got your current account, you’ve got your platinum Visa debit card — by the way, that was the first digital-first Visa platinum card in Singapore. So we’re pleased with that. It’s actually being put forward for a design contest at the moment. Fingers crossed on that. But you’ve got your Spend Account there and we’ve got transaction enrichment already. So when you come through, you get to see the logo of where you bought, the location that you bought, the currency, the exchange, also categorisation, all of these hygiene factors that have become expected now from a neo-bank. We’re not a bank, just to clarify, but it’s a hygiene factor for any sort of payment service. And then attached to that, we’ve got a load of promotions and offers and Goldback® where we’ve got partnerships with the likes of Circles.Life. So you can get opportunities to get the savings on your mobile phone bills, for example, by buying through Hugo.
So we’ve got relationships like that happening in the background. And that little marketplace is growing all the time. Also, when you spend on your car, do you have the opportunity to activate your Roundups. Now Roundups concept that was new to Asia, but established in the West whereby everything you spend gets rounded up to the nearest dollar. You take that loose change. It gets put aside and automatically invested into gold on a weekly basis. And this is something that we use to naturally tip people into the idea that gold can be purchased now for cents instead of there being a minimum $1,500, a long queue at the bank, and then ultimately a vault behind the mirror in your bedroom, or somewhere to store it, it’s now accessible, pure, allocated physical gold. So we’ve got these things attached to the spend. Then we’ve got some savings features. Now savings, in our mind for this context, is savings with a determinate purpose. So this means you’re saving for something that you know you’re going to purchase or acquire down the line, right? And we’ve got these Money Pots that we call purposeful pots, and they’re currently individual and you can… And we’re looking in the future to make them shared and then community as well. And you set your savings goal. You put a picture to motivate you, and Hugo — we’ve got a little anthropomorphised bot that will coach you through the savings. And there’s a little gamification piece to show your progress as you’re going along. So this is a small part of the savings piece. And then the first part of the investment pillar is the Gold Vault. And as we said, this is pure physical allocated gold. This is very important because it means you’re getting fractional ownership of real physical gold bars that are stored in LBMA vaults. That’s the beginning, that’s the absolute baseline minimum we wanted to come to market with what we’re developing at the moment is a five asset class investment portfolio. That is all part of the investment piece as well. So that means you will be able to come in as an entry-level individual into the world of investment and get access to the global markets. And we will guide you through that process by giving you a gradient of risk that you want to take. And then the asset classes will be curated automatically for you. And then you’ve got a little bit of control within that space, but you know, you’re playing in a relatively safe space is not the word I would use, but it’s been curated by experts. So you then know that once this is set up, you’ve got a reasonable portfolio that you will be safe or safer than just speculatively going out into the market with no knowledge averaging in and just investing each month.
And this is really the habit that we want. We want people to get into healthy financial habits, where it’s just normal, that they invest a small amount every month, not enough that it’s going to cause them any distress, not too little that it doesn’t make any difference, but a meaningful amount that gets average in. And the reason that averaging is important is because we don’t want people to have to geek out on their investment. They’re worried every day, “Is it up? Is it down? I don’t know how to track the markets. I don’t really know what’s going on…” Because that’s what creates the reticence and the hesitancy for people to get involved. It’s overwhelming, there’s too much choice. They don’t know what to do. And ultimately what happens is people don’t get started because they just think, “Okay, there’s just too much to worry about.” So get involved average in, you’ll be there when it’s high, you’ll be there when it’s low, but as long as the trend over the long-term goes up, which it will, you will be better off and then you can put it down and you don’t have to over worry about it and there’ll be enhancements and features. So you can get involved as much or as little as you want. So the next focus is bringing that investment piece out, getting ready for open banking to come in. So we can analyse more of your financial universe and look at how we can make these effective savings across Spend on your other accounts, enhance all of the extra features like the Save, so make them shared pots. So instead of there being your individual goals, it could be goals for you or your family or your nephew or your niece, and then community pots as well, where we can get involved in, um, wider organisations. So take that, introduce that into some other markets, the likes of Indonesia, the likes of Thailand and the likes of Malaysia, look at the Asian landscape and then grow out that financial wellbeing proposition.
Xavier: Yeah. That’s a lot to be digested there and a lot to pick apart there. Um, so I’ll just ask, um, something that comes to mind, which is something that you mentioned in regards to the model of, uh, Roundups. So, you know, was there a reason behind it? Because, for context, one key feature within the app is, as Braham mentioned, Roundups, where spare change from each purchase that you make is rounded up and put into this pot. So this seems like a very intuitive feature. So is there any thought or psychological aspect that went behind this neat feature?
Braham: Yeah, absolutely. So when you’re designing a product, for me, one of the most important things is to take it right down to first principles, right down to a human level. And you think, okay, we’ve all grown up over the last 30, 40 years. What are the things that we have done habitually that we can introduce into the digital world that don’t require quite as much behavioural change? We’re familiar with the concept. So Roundups is the analogue of paying for something with a note and having loose change in your pocket. And then at the end of your evening, as a student or a worker or whatever, you come home, and you put all that loose change into a bottle in the corner, loads of people have these giant whiskey bottles. You’ve probably seen them. Others have piggy banks or whatever, but the point is you spend with your notes, you always end up with change at the end, you put that in a bottle and you forget about it. Most people, when they take their trousers off, or they put their purses down, they don’t want to leave all the change jangling down. Naturally, you take out your pocket. So if people are already used to this concept of taking it out, these little bits of change add up over a year, these bottles worth $400-$600, right? So the point of Roundups is to take that loose change, put it aside — you don’t even feel it — and then automatically we invest into gold for you. And it’s something that we call silent savings. So it’s silently working for you in the background. And what that also does is it makes people realise that “Wow, I can buy gold for as little as 1 cent, right? If I happen to buy one thing for 99 cents, and I got 1 cent of Roundup that can be invested into gold.” So that’s really the psychology between roundups to get people into that habit of saving into gold, little and often, and little and often.
Xavier: Yeah. And I think that something that was mentioned, and that is a very interesting feature of Hugo, is about gold. And so to set the context for those listening gold prices are currently hovering at around $1,800 an ounce. And with governments around the world, especially in the US using quantitative easing policies, along with huge stimulus packages, there’s been a lot of talk about inflation. And so the US ten-year treasury is at 1.3%, you have a 4.2% change in the PCE. And the 5.3% increase in the CPI index. So the current inflation rates are well in excess of long-term yields. So would you say that this is the right time to be in gold? And secondly, how did you end up picking gold as the asset class of choice for Hugo?
Braham: Yeah. They are really interesting and really pertinent questions at the time as well. So part of the reason that we started with gold is that we believe — we’re not allowed to advise, we’re not financial advisors — everybody should have a portion of gold in their portfolio. Some say 5%, some say 15%, some say 10%, but just a portion. And your question about inflation is absolutely pertinent because gold is known as the hedge against inflation. Why is that? Because since the break of the Bretton Woods system, so Bretton Woods was 50 years ago when Richard Nixon effectively detached the dollar from being backed by gold. That was the definition of the beginning of the printing of money. So that’s actually where the concept of inflation came from. As soon as the dollar became legal tender, and they were allowed to print more dollars of which there’s now 35 more times or 38 more times, or whatever, in circulation, that’s the definition of inflation, right? You’re diluting all the time by adding more and more and more circulation into the market. So to give you some context gold at that time was $35 an ounce. Now it’s $1,800 an ounce. Think about that for a minute. An ounce is an ounce, it’s the same amount of gold, right? But it’s now gone up from $35 to $1,800. So if you want to talk about how to combat or how to hedge against inflation, the ultimate asset of choice for that is gold because, by definition, it was this detachment from gold, which broke the fiscal discipline and made this inflation possible, because an ounce of gold today is an ounce of gold yesterday, it’s an ounce of gold tomorrow. And as the currency keeps getting more and more diluted as they print more and more of it, the gold would just relatively, just creep up in the long-term. So that’s the long-term logic behind it.
Xavier: Yeah. That really felt like a history lesson. It was very interesting to learn a little bit more about why gold is a great choice at the moment. So, uh, alongside this, what makes Hugo really stand out from the crowd in Singapore? There are quite a few wealth apps or financial literacy apps. So do you see yourself competing with the likes of Grab or StashAway in the wealth scene and how has your reception been within the Singapore market? Uh, I’ve seen that you’ve recently had an ice cream stand in the middle of the UK equivalent of Oxford Street. So I would really like to hear more about your reception, how you guys are competing with the likes of other financial wellbeing apps.
Braham: Yeah. So this is the Uncle Chieng piece. We’ll come back to that in a minute because that’s a great growth hack and contributions from the community going on. So appreciate you bringing that up.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We can compete with the likes of Grab and StashAway. Now, as slightly different models, we’re all in the same place — they’re complementary, there’s space for a lot of players. It isn’t a case where you have to have one or the other, but Grab very much maintains its own ecosystem. StashAway very much focuses on one of those pillars. So what we want to do at Hugo, which is slightly different, is the journey. The journey is so important to us that you have to have the, Spend, the Save and the Invest — the holy trinity of the financial journey all taken care of, because that’s how you get the context of the input and the output. So that’s how we feel that we’re differentiating ourselves, taking people on this journey, where they develop these healthy financial habits that they can maintain and stick to.
That’s the most important thing, not a quick fad, not a get-rich-quick scheme — a healthy, sustainable financial habit that will bring financial wellbeing to your life and ultimately reduce the stress levels that people have with the financial concerns that happen primarily across the middle-classes.
Xavier: Yeah. And, what about your reception in Singapore and your ice cream piece?
Braham: Yeah, so yeah, so sorry. Yeah, the Uncle Chieng piece. So reception’s been great. We’ve been around for a couple of months now. We’ve already got thousands of users.
Um, and we like to market a little bit differently, so we’re not just throwing loads of money at the wall at Facebook and Google, etc. etc. Because… We will have to do some of that, but that isn’t really the secret sauce. The secret sauce that makes things happen is to be creative, speak to the people, empathise with the community, grow in the hearts of minds, with what we call our #HugoHeroes. Everybody that embarks upon a journey with Hugo, we refer to as a #HugoHero. Now, Uncle Chieng went through a really tough time during COVID. He used to sell… Well, he sells ice cream. And before that, he sold ice cream for years, for decades! And he’s an icon in Singapore. And then during COVID, obviously that hit him really hard
And we love ice cream at Hugo! I mean, who doesn’t love ice cream? It evokes these memories of childhood. It’s fun. It’s delicious. Everybody loves it. We even give ice cream as our currency of reward and within Slack as our little emojis, right? So we, we got our heads together and we have this growth team and we said, “Why don’t we reach out to Uncle Chieng, offer to refurbish his cart, get some branding for Hugo at a very prominent place in Singapore (as you say, it’s the equivalent of Oxford Street in London) but make sure that he’s getting real value out of it. And it’s aligned with our philosophy?” So what’s going to give him value? Refurbish his cart. Great. Sponsor his ice cream. Yeah. Get him more awareness. Yes. Okay, all those ticked off. How’s it going to create value for our users? Well, this is in line exactly with our savings without sacrifice philosophy. They were already in the queue for Uncle Chieng’s, why not let Hugo pay for your ice cream? Give us an opportunity to introduce ourselves to you. Download the application. We’ll get the ice cream for free. That’s the very first step in your financial wellbeing journey with Hugo. And you’ll remember that and you can take that into the app and start your journey and get more rewards.
And then how does it help the business? Well, it’s commercial awareness, because we’ve got the cart out there with Uncle Chieng, great publicity for doing something commercially and, more importantly, community aware. So the earned media that we get from that is great. So there are no losers. Everybody loves ice cream. The camaraderie within the team is fantastic. Hopefully, you’ve gone down there. I haven’t been able to, because I’m stuck in the UK, but they’re out there with their t-shirts. There are lots of smiles. We’ve got our own special menu. Um, and that has pushed us to the point where at its peak time, it’s getting us, like, four signups a minute. So the reception has been really good.
Xavier: I think something that’s always good is always to give back and to market yourself in a way that’s sustainable and in a way that gives back to the community. Um, something that I always find very interesting was also your background. I think I mentioned it at the start of this podcast and yeah, you’ve been through so many different projects. You’ve started so many different companies. So I wanted to ask, what’s the best advice that you’ve received through working at different industries and different firms?
Braham: Wow. Okay. Fascinating. So yeah, definitely life is a journey, right? And I’ve always said to myself, if you’re doing the same thing after seven years, you’re not evolving. You’re not moving fast enough. So whatever you do, keep yourself occupied, keep driving and you can have multiple businesses at the same time. You can have some successes, you can have some failures and all of that is massively important.
So what are the key things? Okay. So starting with a few traits and then some advice. So in terms of the traits of an entrepreneur, you’ve got to have humility because, for me, people are everything. On your own, you can scratch around on the surface, but with a team, you can build rockets. You can go to space, you can go to the moon. Can’t do that on your own; the team and the people are everything. So that’s really important: Humility. You’ve got to be resilient because there’s a lot of change going on out there. We live in an incredibly fast-paced world, rapidly evolving. Um, so that resilience has got to kick in from external factors. And of course, that beds into agility as well. And then you’ve just got to be courageous, be bold to take that move. It’s scary sometimes to start something new or to change your course, but some of the most fascinating stories, I’ve seen a people in their middle or later ages of their career, taking a different course for a passion that they’ve had for their lives and really making something great out of it.
But in terms of some commercial advice, so one is always to have a mentor, no matter how far up you are in the business, there’s always plenty of people out there that have more experience than you. So I have that mentor. And one of the greatest things I’ve learned from mine is to always manage your cash flow. In every single business, however small, however large, if you run out of cash, you are done. Even if you think, oh, I’m raising money, you can’t raise money with no cash. You run out of runway. You can’t even get started with no cash. And if you do get started with no cash, you end up with people that are constantly sweating and maybe mutual co-founders are sweating. You can only go so far before one or either of them, or many of them realise that actually, they can’t sustain that because it sounds great working for free for a period, but once six months has passed, all of a sudden you’ve got houses, you’ve got mortgages, you’ve got children and mouths to feed. So it’s the boring part of your business, managing your books and your cash flow. But it’s the one thing that will keep you alive because it is the oxygen. So that’s probably the sage piece of advice that I got, from the mentors. But you’ve got to have those personal traits as well. I love and have an appreciation for people in the team and our resilience to push on and persevere and have that courage to actually go through.
Xavier: Yeah, I think all of your points are, you know, super important and super relevant for anyone who’s planning to start a company i.e. any future entrepreneurs out there. And something that you mentioned earlier in regards to this chemistry that you have with your co-founders, I think that’s very important. And so, you know, how did you get to know your fellow co-founders and what are the traits that you look out for in the founding team when establishing a new startup? I think this advice would be quite quintessential for anyone who’s starting a new business.
Braham: Yeah, it’s interesting. So one of the other things that I do is some mentoring at Imperial Enterprise Labs. So that’s Imperial College in London. Um, and from all the history that I’ve seen leading up to this, we have some exposure in textiles, team-building et cetera.
One of the biggest reasons for failure is co-founder fallout. It’s about not being aligned on the same vision or not wanting to implement the mission in the same way, or just not really being in it for the same purpose, right? Some just want to be king for a day. Others want to make as much difference and impact as they can. Very different paths. So yeah, having that harmony between co-founders is super important. So like I mentioned, I met, um, both of them through this journey and I mean, such as life, right? You meet people in left field circumstances that you don’t expect. And it was that we all had this common interest in this FinTech in London. Um, Ben was involved in it from an operational perspective. I was consulting towards it. Um, and David had a vested interest as well. And this was actually where all the conversations began and it doesn’t actually matter the context of how you meet — because you could meet someone at an ice cream store, you could meet them at a business conference — it doesn’t matter. It’s where the conversation goes and a relationship develops from there.
So we developed our relationship from there. We met in London and David was in the UK for a period. We had some meetings, where we scoped out what it is that we’d like to do. We talked about purpose, mission vision realised that there was an alignment there realised that there was a strategy there. Um, and that was how we all drove forward together in terms of the traits. Like I said before, it’s important that they share what I believe are those core values of an entrepreneur. You want somebody who’s a people person. I don’t just mean all friendly, friendly. I mean, somebody with genuine empathy to understand that “Look we’re about to go on a journey now.” And an entrepreneur, it feels sometimes like an incredibly selfish thing because you’re not actually just taking yourself on a journey; you’re taking your entire family on the journey because you are having phone calls at two in the morning. We’ve got half of the business in Singapore, half of the business in London. It’s all-consuming! And one of the biggest considerations is: Are you ready for this journey? Is your family in a stable enough place to embark on this journey with you? Have you spoken to them about the journey you are about to go on? And all of these boxes were ticked for us: Do you like the individuals? Are they worldly? Are they cultured? Are they mature? Can they handle the different types of personalities and people and behaviours that we’re going to get involved in?
Tech is a complex place — different characters, the marketing team has a set of behaviours, developers have a very different set of behaviours. Understanding and empathising with each of their needs so that human element is very important. And then genuinely, can you afford to go on this journey together? All the terms set out in a way that you’re not going to push one off the table because they just can’t hang on. Um, and then just all having the courage to go out there and do it. So, yeah, we met through that nexus point in the FinTech in the UK, we developed a relationship. All of those boxes of those traits were ticked. And there was a really good sort of Venn diagram overlap of skills that just met, a nice nexus between us. Um, and you know, we’re almost two years down the line and there’s no fallout yet, which is great!
Xavier: Yeah. I think whatever you’ve said is really inspiring to anyone who’s trying to be an entrepreneur, trying to make it out there, or, you know, trying to think of an idea that works. And not only that works for themselves, but for the rest of the team and for the community. And so, you know, I just wanted to thank you for being here and for those people who are thinking of exploring or using Hugo: just wanted to make a little bit of a shout out that, you know, until the 26th of November, I think customers will be able to enjoy fee-free gold trading. So make sure you take advantage of that. And so Braham, thanks so much for speaking with us. I think what Hugo does is really cool and I will definitely continue being a user and I wish you guys the best going forward as you guys continue to scale. I know that more great features will continue to be added and that you guys will have a tremendous impact. So thank you, Braham.
Braham: Brilliant. Thank you, Xavier. Pleasure. You’re a #HugoHero!
Xavier: So that brings us to the end of this episode. Thanks so much for listening and I’ll catch you in the next one.